Transcript of The Yoga Podcast Episode 13
With Paul Dallaghan
Claudia A. Altucher: Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Yoga Podcast. I am over the moon to have this guest with me because I’ve been looking for him for over, I’m gonna say, seven to eight months, and he’s just so busy, but I have Paul Dallaghan. He is the co-founder with his wife, Jutima, of Yoga Thailand and Samahita Wellness –
Paul Dallaghan: Ex-wife.
Claudia A. Altucher: Excuse me?
Paul Dallaghan: That’s ex-wife.
Claudia A. Altucher: Oh, I didn’t know. I’m sorry to hear.
Paul Dallaghan: [Laughs] Nothing to be sorry about, but yeah, go ahead.
Claudia A. Altucher: Oh, okay. So that’s news, I guess. Last December, CNN named them as one of the top ten wellness resorts in Asia. He has been trained personally in a one-on-one capacity with Sri O.P. Tiwari, a true yogi master, master of pranayama, and head of the Yoga Institute Kaivalyadhama in India. And amazingly enough, Paul was also trained in advanced asana practice with the great Sri K. Pattabhi Jois, who’s the man himself, the founder of the Ashtanga Yoga Vinyasa system as we know it. Both centers – I had the opportunity to visit it twice in the beautiful island of Koh Samui, and he is also, at the moment, on top of all of this and having two children, he has been taken by the Emory University in Atlanta in the USA in the field of biological anthropology, and he’s following a Ph.D. program, bringing the yogic practices and philosophy to the scientific field. Paul, welcome. So grateful to have you on the podcast.
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah, thank you, Claudia.
Claudia A. Altucher: So it is 3:38. I guess there have been major changes in your life. I know you just returned from a teacher training in Thailand for a full month. Are you still in Koh Samui time or are you in Atlanta time?
Paul Dallaghan: I’m in Atlanta time.
Claudia A. Altucher: Yeah? You’ve totally recovered from jetlag, no problem?
Paul Dallaghan: Well, I’m in – I never – naturally, there’s a certain amount of drag that goes with the flight, but I find that it’s not that big of an issue, and especially, I suppose, when you just kinda regulate yourself or maybe some of the benefit of the breath practice, I think, helps a lot. I mean, I once asked my own teacher, Tiwari G., who had just flown back from Europe to India, I said, “How are things? Any jetlag?” And he said, “What jetlag?” And this is him at 80 years of age, and he said, “What jetlag? If you do the practices, that doesn’t really bother you.”
Now, I’m not saying that, “Oh, this magical thing and everything goes away,” but rather, that a certain, I suppose, respect in working with our own natural rhythms, our own internal clock, and – if you can kind of manage the length and the detail of the flight, along with how much and when you’re eating, along with when you go to bed, and your own kind of rhythmic, internal setting, which you can kind of play with a lot just via the breath, then I think jetlag is way less. In my case, I feel its presence, but it’s sort of minimal.
Claudia A. Altucher: That’s very interesting, ’cause I remember in 2009, you gave us sort of like a – somewhat of some suggestions to avoid the jetlag, and you suggested, “Eat before, a healthy dinner, like three or four hours before; don’t eat when you’re in the airport, and try to relax and move the body, and then in the morning, if you want – ” and you said, “Start singing some mantras and – ” [laughs] – and it was funny because you looked around like, “What would be the reaction of other passengers if you started singing mantras and do some pranayama?” – all of which I tried, and none of which worked, and it probably is because I haven’t been practicing 13 years nonstop like you have, so it didn’t work for me.
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know how or what you did, so – but you know, I think the biggest thing is eating, and how long the flight is and when and how much you eat is a big factor. I mean, a lotta people get on the plane and it’s around midnight and the time they get on, and then they’re given the plate of food and they eat it, and – which they wouldn’t be doing if they were just normally at home or whatever, you know? So avoiding those kinda little mishaps can help a lot. The rest, if you’re doing any mantra singing, do that in your head, obviously.
Claudia A. Altucher: Right, yes. [Laughs]
Paul Dallaghan: And that’s up to any individual for what they wanna get into, their preference, you know? Personally, I like to relax and watch a movie, you know? But usually, there’s work to do.
Claudia A. Altucher: Right. So you started – you discovered, you say, yoga in 1995 in New York City, and you were on course to become an actor?
Paul Dallaghan: No, I had a academic background in economics and business, and I had done a bit of work in that after graduating in Europe, and I came interviewing on Wall Street, but something other, shall we say, was calling me. I wasn’t that interested in getting a job, per se. You know, 23, 24, I felt, “Well, there’s other things in my heart, and some of them just require exploration, and some, I can’t put a finger on or express,” but given a space and given a kind of a freedom, which is what I felt New York embodied and which is why I wanted to be there was to pull off the tie, quite literally, and explore. And one of the things I was interested in was the expression that might come through acting, et cetera, and so I went in and out of that over a couple of years there, and in the sense, sort of satisfied that urge or interest, but at the same time, the word “yoga” came into my vocabulary. When maybe I should’ve been looking at The New York Times help wanted section, instead, I was looking at obscure pages, say, on The Village Voice or whatever, and out of there popped the word “yoga” and my curiosity and so on from there.
Claudia A. Altucher: And so then you began a – it happened kind of fast because you began teaching in New York in 1998, so I guess – and you started with Sivananda, you had mentioned, I think, and had some explorations in that time?
Paul Dallaghan: Well, the first yoga session I ever took was Sivananda, but I also had a – got a job in a restaurant in the East Village, and I found a room in the top floor of that same building, but in between me and the restaurant was a small, young Jivamukti yoga studio.
Claudia A. Altucher: Wow.
Paul Dallaghan: So I used to have a key to the studio to go to my room, and – it just turned out, you know? So I sort of found myself, without any prior intention, in a sort of a yoga world zone. And early on, I got sort of a mental message, “Oh, you should teach yoga,” but then the slightly erroneous, but rational side, said, “No, you’ve got other things to do.”
Claudia A. Altucher: But when you say you got a message, what do you mean? You got a message from the universe? Did you read it in a billboard? How did that message come in?
Paul Dallaghan: [Laughs] Must’ve been a text message back in 1996. Oh, they didn’t have text messages back in 1996.
Claudia A. Altucher: Right. [Laughs]
Paul Dallaghan: What I mean is you just get – I don’t wanna go too much into that, but you just get sort of inner insights – or in this sense, it literally was an inner kind of voice or message that I chose to ignore until I couldn’t ignore it after ____ ____ few years – [inaudible due to crosstalk]
Claudia A. Altucher: Well, no, once it puts the Jivamukti studio before your – between your bedroom and the world, it becomes kind of a – I mean, the mythology of that image is just enormous. [Laughs]
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah, but I – I was still intent – and I suppose I had to explore other aspects of my character or desire and ambitions, and they took a couple of years not so much to get satisfied, but to get extracted and somewhat beaten, even, so that I kind of realized what really speaks to me or interests me is, you know, to embody ___ ____ in a yogic path, but it is sort of working within, working on the inside, working and – you know, via, I suppose, these practices on who I am, and I said, “Okay, let’s go with life that way.”
Claudia A. Altucher: So that’s very interesting to me. So you – because you were very young, and to have that realization at such a young age, “Okay, let’s go with what life takes – is sort of guiding me to do,” is a little bit of a blessing.
Paul Dallaghan: Yes, ___ ____, but at that age, you don’t think you’re very young, you know? [Inaudible due to crosstalk] If you’re 26, you don’t think you’re young. You’re like, “Well, shouldn’t I have done stuff already?” And that was part of my problem before that. It was like, “Well, I’m supposed to have got into this or done that or made that,” and that’s what was the kind of trajectory coming out of a academic and university setting, and that path, in itself, had to unravel.
And if anything, it wasn’t – there’s no sheer intelligence or genius on my part; it was more just, “Let me explore and take a risk,” and in the process, it was kind of frustrating or a little bit challenging to, I suppose, ego and the mental side, but on the other side, it was exciting to just sort of be free and look at things. And within that, I suppose, because being willing to explore within that came a realization, which if you look at a life, you could say it came early, but I mean, I could almost say, “Well, why didn’t it happen at 18 instead of 26?”
Claudia A. Altucher: Right, yeah, the mind can always complain.
Paul Dallaghan: Not – no, I wouldn’t call it complaining, but it’s more like the process of going through things is important to the process, you know? It’s important to the discovery, to the understanding. So if you don’t allow the process to go through, then it’s always something that’s one step away or at a distance or – so it’s not just the, “Oh,” you wake up at 18 or 48, you know, and there it is; it’s rather that either life has kicked us into some difficulty or challenge or something inside is unsettled or dissatisfied or wants to search and look, and that actual process is the benefit in and of itself and the kind of revealing factor.
So whenever that comes up for – for me, you could say it was coming up early. It wasn’t – the thoughts were there as a college student, but you’re in kind of a nice, boxed world. You step out of that and then you’re in the world, and so then those thoughts really came up, you know? “Okay, I can have a job, but that seems too easy,” you know? Or it doesn’t seem – “It won’t satisfy me, so what else is there?” is the way my mind was looking at things at, I suppose, 24.
Claudia A. Altucher: Right, right.
Paul Dallaghan: So…
Claudia A. Altucher: So a couple of years after you somewhat went through this process teaching in New York City, and then by late – [clears throat] – 2001, you took the opportunity to move to Asia and go on pilgrims – so your life was completely being changed through this process.
Paul Dallaghan: Well, maybe from the – an external view, one might consider it like that. From the internal point of view that I would take, it was more of a following what was being felt or drawn to from inside. So for me to – I felt I had – I felt, “Okay, I could set up a yoga studio in New York City and do all that kind of stuff, but why, and what would I be really getting from it, and what would it achieve? I need to go much deeper into the learning the practice, the study, what it’s about,” and it was sort of almost like with no other choice, in a way. It was just, “Embrace that, follow that,” hence the sort of step to India and Thailand and so on. And within that, it was just naturally to go wander, be it on a pilgrimage or other certain places, and some of those were what you might call desires; some of them were things that happened along the way.
Claudia A. Altucher: So you went, I mean, around Tibet, Thailand, Israel, Israel, and so on. Did you experience things that were – you know, sometimes we have those experiences that somehow, for one reason or another, confirm that we’re on the right path or – during this time, did – or, I don’t know, things that seemed magical or coincidences or things like that, did you experience anything like that?
Paul Dallaghan: To be honest, when I – for one of the better term – surrendered back in my New York days, you know, when I said, “You know, all I really am interested in or wanna do is this yoga path,” you know, back in 1997 or something, what I felt then was a – quite a strong shift, and instead of dealing with the challenges or going against what was like – going against the wind or going against the grain, I felt a kind of a shift of support and momentum, you know? It’s like I’d found the wind and it was now blowing me along. I remember being in a – just shortly after that, watching a movie. It’s the – some people know it, The Thin Red Line, and there was a scene in it where they’re just trapped on this mountain, and they’re saying, “If we go up there, this will happen; if we go this way, that’ll happen; if we go down there, this will happen,” you know, almost like no way out. And I remember walking out of it realizing that sense of stuck, trap, challenge sort of evaporated or gone from me.
It was quite a phenomenal sort of feeling and understanding and insight, and ever since then, there was never a doubt for me of, “What path am I on? Am I doing the right thing? What if – ” ’cause I wasn’t trying to measure it in terms, “Well, have I made enough? Did I achieve enough?” et cetera. And that might’ve been – those are the things that I think dogged me before that. After, it was a sense of, “Let me give myself to this learning, understanding, practice, and grow with it,” and it was a – then the teacher’s there, the situations are there, and it’s up to oneself to make the most outta that, and I try to express that in teaching with the students, that – and there’s a wonderful word in Sanskrit that kind of defines it – srabda – how do you embrace and take this on? You know, you could see that as a quality in any relationship and kind of defines the relationship and defines the interaction because you embrace – you get involved, you take it on, you get into it. And the space for what you might call the unreasonable doubt or the, “What am I doing?” – really, at a certain point, that has to and should have passed.
When one is earlier and they’re playing with it, then there’s not even a conviction about it, and then there’s a sense of, “Is this right? What is it? Am I wasting my time?” et cetera. At a later point, the doubts are, “Well, does that make sense?” They’re more like questions to look at it and bring up to the teacher and so on. And for me, a big – I think a big learning was to not let fear, in any form, guide decision.
Claudia A. Altucher: Right, right. That is so interesting that you say that, because recently, I realized how much of my life has – how many decisions have been done because of fear – fear of things I’m not even aware of. It takes a deep sort of going within to realize where you’re coming from, and so I find it interesting, also, that you said there was an inner shift and you had no more doubts. So during this period of transition, you’re going on pilgrim and it becomes very clear to you, and – I mean, I guess you said it: you just surrendered to the process because it was happening and you sort of were, like, just dealing with what presented itself.
Paul Dallaghan: When I say, I mean, an inner shift, no more doubts, it’s – I don’t mean that – I mean, obviously, challenges and other number of difficulties presented themselves. You know, I mean, me deciding to just sort of teach yoga and living in New York City wasn’t like some financial balloon or some security setup –
Claudia A. Altucher: No, it’s the opposite.
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah, I mean, it – and it was the opposite of what was expected of me, both by myself and, say, peers or parents or guides or whatever. You spend all those years studying and doing other things, so – but the couple of years of struggle before that forced out of me a sense of, “Ah, this is what makes sense and this is what I need to do,” and then – so that doubt of, “Try this, try that,” or, “I’m not sure,” had passed.
And then, with that comes its own set of challenges and what’s next. Like, for a while, it was great just living like that in New York and teaching and practicing, but there was a sense there’s more to it; there’s more depth than this, and that’s when the next chapter into time in Asia – and then, within that phase, the last 15 years or so have been a number of different chapters. But if I’m to decide – or when I was faced with a decision of this or that and if I’m saying, “No,” or, “Not – ” What’s behind that? Is it some kind of – is there an element of fear in it or is there a sense of, “Okay, trust”? Don’t be, of course, foolish about it, but trust, move forward, embrace.
Claudia A. Altucher: Right, right, and how did it happen that you met Tiwari? I mean, Tiwari is this incredible teacher. He has only two students that he teaches one-on-one in the whole world, and you’re one of them. How did that happen?
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah, that – when you say it like that, that sounds very – [laughs] – almost too Hollywood-ish, almost, but you know –
Claudia A. Altucher: [Laughs]
Paul Dallaghan: It turns out that – you know, it’s not something that I, I suppose, sort of trumpet or exclaim out there, but rather, that when it comes down to it in a more deeper, personal way, there’s only a couple of us who had that particular relationship. At the same time, many others have shown up and learned from Tiwari G. and so on, but when you talk about a – the kinda deeply rich tradition and where there’s sort of a sense of initiation and opening up and passing on of teaching, there’s a number of factors that come together, and a genuine teacher doesn’t have 10,000 students like that because it’s impossible, you know? You might have 10,000 people cross your door, or a million, or 100, but to work with it – because it’s a two-way relationship, you know? And the teacher isn’t gonna waste their time opening up and – you know, ’cause they really encourage help, and guide the students on many levels of life, but obviously, the focus being on the internal aspect.
So when Tiwari Ji. and I met, there was a sense of, “He’s nice, good connection; he told me to do this, so I’ll do that,” and it still took about two-and-a-half years to kind of come together – and if I look at it now, he was sort of watching and seeing me and what am I doing; there’s something apparent on the inside as well, and – that I suppose he was more aware of. So after a couple of years of interacting and – you know, if I hadn’t kept up practice, then that interaction wouldn’t really be going anywhere, you know? It would just be a nice hello, talk about whatever, and, yeah, get back and continue to do that practice which you’ve been asked to do time and time again for the last couple of years.
So instead, by doing something sincerely and getting into it, there’s a shift, a growth, and part of that depends on the inner condition as well as the student. And so the combination of the effort, the condition, and the interaction with the teacher brings something forward, and I – the teacher knows, “These are the students that I’m invested in,” and the student has an understanding of, “I am fully committed to this.” And within that, there might be a level of initiation, et cetera, but it’s not like, I think, it’s portrayed in so many …
Claudia A. Altucher: There are no explosions and Kundalini risings and things like that?
Paul Dallaghan: Well, no; what I mean is the mystical and “ooh, ah,” you know, “Your guru initiated you,” and all this and that, is the sort of exaggerated or slated in what are typically, I suppose, superficial accounts.
Claudia A. Altucher: Right, I agree with that.
Paul Dallaghan: So when it’s more, “Ooh, you’re touched,” and, “You’re given some mantra there,” and this and that, really, this isn’t any genuine initiation in a way of teaching, you know? The connection that has to get established with a teacher-student is something, I suppose, subtle, personal, doesn’t need a big fanfare, and there are a few different ways that it can be formalized, of course, but then, of course, it has to continue. Now, eventually, if the teacher is experienced and worth their salt, then they understand the inner path, the movement of prana, sushumna, what opens up that word, “Kundalini,” et cetera, and the student is helped or guided there. And typically, the student comes up against a number of difficulties or blocks or whatever they might be, and the teacher’s there to help with that. And there, where there might be a genuine, strong change or shift, I mean, it’s something that’s understood on a more personal level between by the teacher and the student, but by then, it’s already a well-established relationship.
Claudia A. Altucher: Right. Now, how did you actually meet him? Did someone introduce you, or did you sort of walk into each other, or…
Paul Dallaghan: He was doing a short course on pranayama and Ashram in upstate New York, and a friend of mine who was teaching with me in the city said, “Well, I’m gonna check out this teacher – ” he had seen him, I think, the year before, and he just – I mean, he’d come to America in the mid-’70s and then didn’t bother coming back till the late-’90s, and so I think this is his second year back or something.
Claudia A. Altucher: Wow.
Paul Dallaghan: Just to do the two weekends. And I said, “Okay, I’ll go along; I’m into checking that out.” And so we met there, and whatever I was asked to practice, I tried to keep up, and – those few months, which I suppose I did on and off, but then a few months later, we met in India, and you know, there was a nice exchange between us, but it still was pretty early. And then I spent a few weeks studying in the Kaivalya down there, and then we met again back in the U.S., and then after that, I ended up moving over to Asia anyway, so…
Claudia A. Altucher: Right, so it developed over years. And what – is the focus of Tiwari mostly on pranayama?
Paul Dallaghan: Well, the focus is on yoga.
Claudia A. Altucher: Right, all of it, right.
Paul Dallaghan: But the – one has to look at where is the student at and what point of development, and I would say a very strong legacy of Kuvalayananda, who is the teacher of Tiwari G. – and is one of the great grandfather of yoga in the last hundred years – is – the legacy is well, well, well understood about the pranayama practice. So asana, it’s important; it’s done there. There’s other aspects, of course, between sitting and mantra stuff, and some of those things can be emphasized at a later point. But to introduce people via the breath and the kriyas, of course, first, and then –
Claudia A. Altucher: The kriyas are all the cleansings to clean the – all the internal organs and the nose and the mouth and all of that.
Paul Dallaghan: If you want to put it simply like that, yeah, but they’re to – if you want to translate it as cleansing, yeah, but to kinda give a bit of a shift to the inner environment – sloth or inertia or hypersensitivity or even just toxicity, you know, these sorta aspects get worked on. And you know, the asana practice has some impact on that, too, as well as stabilizing the body and so on. So the – to introduce people to a certain amount of that and work with the breath and, at a later point, get into pranayama, yeah, has been a major element of Tiwari Ji and the teachings.
Claudia A. Altucher: Right. The reason I say it was a blessing, the way things came together for you is you developed this relation with Tiwari, and at the same time, you were in India with Pattabhi Jois; you’ve gone all the way to the third, fourth series of Ashtanga yoga, so your asana practice was incredibly deep as well as this coming into your life. It made you very unique, in a way, in your formation as a teacher, I would say. So by the time you opened in 2003 the first Yoga Thailand, you had all these influences coming through you, which you were able to offer. How were you able to start Yoga Thailand? Did you have money saved? Did you…
Paul Dallaghan: No.
You know, I came over to Asia in 2001, and with the main intention to just sort of study and practice in India, and Jutima, my partner then, was originally from Thailand, and we said, “But also check out Thailand,” and you know, Thailand is a very – it’s sort of – it’s a very welcoming, but also, positive place from a spiritual practice point of view, that people might try to search for in India, and there’s a certain smoothness or simplicity with it in Thailand.
So anyway, both environments suited me, and we had just saved a few thousand dollars after leaving New York, but then we taught a few programs and spent time also studying and practicing in India, and the – I was asked do I want to take over this piece of land with the bungalows on it, and back to kind of the reasoning behind decisions, “If I say no, why? Is it out of laziness? Out of fear? Am I trying to avoid responsibility?” So that’s how I looked at things, and so, “Okay, if I take this on, I can have an environment that supports practice that isn’t diluted by a bunch of other people coming in there, and smoking, and different food and all that.”
So that was really the understanding – rationale. And I figured, “Okay, well, I’ll teach X, Y, Z in the next six months,” and there was no opportunity for anyone to give us money or invest or bank loan, even, you know, at that point back then, and there wasn’t really any yoga things going on around Asia either. So it was just a sense of work hard; any money that came in we put it in to build the thing, and see what would happen. And without any elaborate business plan or other things, it was more a sense of getting stuck in, full on, and not needing to or wanting to have earned X, Y, Z or – but more just took a –
Claudia A. Altucher: Wow.
Paul Dallaghan: To be honest, my philosophy was – I’d look up and I’d say, “Okay, Mother, if you want this to work, then I’ll do my part, and if it doesn’t, no loss.” We just – I realize that this isn’t part of my mix and we go on to the next thing.
Claudia A. Altucher: You know, recently, I interviewed – oh, I – her name is blanking now, but the woman who does Ayurveda – Jessica Blanchard – and she was there at the beginning, and she said that as soon as you started, after a couple of months, you and your partner went to India, and she was left to manage the center all by herself, which was – and she didn’t – she said she didn’t feel scared. She said there was an energy and a synergy between all of you that it was just happening as it was supposed to be happening, even though I’m paraphrasing her a little bit, until you guys returned from India and continued developing the center.
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah, well, my initial intention was, if I was to take this on, it wasn’t to get me caught up in building some business and growing some place, and I remember saying it specifically to Jutima at the time that, “Okay, if we do this, I’m still taking six months of the year in India,” and that was my own personal sort of promise, and I did for years, more so out of a, you might call “meticulous planning” of putting on particular teachings and programs when there, and when not there, keeping the place managed and run. If we’ve already put in systems, then whoever could be there, like Jessica – Jessica was doing that after about a year or two, and before, Rusty was there for a bit and one or two others in between, and if you put something in place and make sure people are taken care of, costs covered, et cetera, and you can plan it out so that things can work in time, then it had its own kind of synergy and flow. But I still would say – I mean, that comes down to a certain amount of sitting down to look at it and to care, and how do you put these things together, you know?
Claudia A. Altucher: Yes, yes.
Paul Dallaghan: It isn’t just like, “Oh, well, here it is,” and it’s all flowing and
Claudia A. Altucher: No, absolutely not, and you know, one thing I will say is after every time I’ve been to Yoga Thailand, there is always – even now on the new center – and I was told by somebody who recommended I go there – a full sort of feedback form, which it seemed to me was very respected. And by the time you were able to actually build a new center, which you built from scratch, I guess you had a lot of feedback from students and a bigger, better vision for it?
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know how much that played into what was to come next, but there was more a sense of, “Okay, if we’re to continue to teach and not just have an asana room, then the next rendition of this can involve a little bit more,” you know? So I wouldn’t say the people on the feedback form were asking for a yagna shala or something, but due to my practices or sitting with Tiwari G. and fire ceremonies and stuff, it was a thing that should go into a place like this, you know? I don’t know if people were asking for a swimming pool or not, but naturally –
Claudia A. Altucher: The swimming pool is very nice.
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah, so you gotta put in a pool because, you know, part of it is just practical stuff as well, you know, how to kinda organize and put things together, but what was very important was Tiwari G. and I going to the landing before construction started and after and doing our own little kind of fire ceremonies, mantras, and so on. The point is that this land has given us space to do something on; we respect it back; and then the energy of that should be charged to – especially – if you’re talking about the zone of practice, it’s not just, “Stick it here and build that, and hey, it looks great.” There’s sort of a fundamental ground that should come with that, and that sort of – especially if you look at the tradition, it has always sort of been built on a sense of what ritual was done and what chant – mantra is sort of put in space, you know? And then that’s something we continue to support, we – every day since, you know?
Claudia A. Altucher: Yeah. Now, let me ask you, when you started building the new center, which is now – and I just saw it last year, and it keeps expanding. There is even more dormitories now for people to come over. Did you have the money?
Paul Dallaghan: Meaning –
Claudia A. Altucher: When you –
Paul Dallaghan: – did I have the money in advance to pay for whatever I wanted?
Claudia A. Altucher: Yeah.
Paul Dallaghan: No, of course – [laughs]
Claudia A. Altucher: It’s amazing because – I mean, I know you’re gonna accuse me of going Hollywood on this, but the truth is, to me, the retreat you built now is like the Richard Branson island for yoga. It’s this amazing place; there are all sorts of Ayurvedic practices that you can take, including colonics, sauna; there is consultations; you can do cleansing; the food is amazing; there is a sauna with a steam room, and it’s just this beautiful place. There’s a place for the fire ceremony, the swimming pool, the ocean. So it surprises me, this, “No, I didn’t have the money.” [Laughs] It came to be through the internal practice.
Paul Dallaghan: Well, I mean, let’s not take anything sort of mystical or magical from this. It was just a sense of – if we’d earned stuff, you know, we had five, six years at the first place, and we’d earned some money from that, which, of course, we had by then. That was put towards it, but I mean, that might’ve only covered a third or half of things. We did get a small bank loan, and then the rest was also a little bit of just back to the old way of doing things – you know, the schedule continues, things are booked, and just whatever is more or less coming, or even if I did a workshop outside and earned something, all of it went in towards this.
And there was a point where I wondered could we pay to finish the place, et cetera. We had a time limit. But I also said to myself, “Well, these are things I’m not gonna worry about because I can’t. It’s not productive, but let it come together.” But there’s a sense of – we weren’t trying to – obviously, we were doing what we felt was an appropriate setup for the next level, but it wasn’t like – you could easily get carried away and go too big, do too much, and then we might have found ourselves in trouble. So it was finding the right balance of size, budget, planning, and being efficient about that, and I’m thankful to say that that went fairly smooth, not just because we trusted or chanted mantras or something, but because –
Claudia A. Altucher: No, you put in the work, but then you also trusted that would had to come – would come. You did what you could, is what I’m getting –
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah, but we also didn’t try to build some – the biggest place or fanciest – it was more an appropriate size. And yeah, there’s been a few additions since because, naturally, you get into something new and then you’re gonna grow a bit, and, yeah, I mean, not that there’s dormitories. [Laughs]
Claudia A. Altucher: Yeah, I don’t know if that’s the right term.
Paul Dallaghan: It’s nice rooms.
Claudia A. Altucher: They’re beautiful rooms. They’re really beautiful rooms.
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah. Thank you.
Claudia A. Altucher: Yeah. It’s an amazing place. I recommend to everyone to – the journey is long; that’s true. But what a place to go to. Now, you know, Paul, the one thing that changed me very deeply in attending your classes is (a) how much time you take, how slow paced it is. When somebody goes to one of your workshops, there is this ability to take our time. Like, I would think, “Okay, we’re laying down, breathing in three parts,” and 10 – 15 minutes, we’ll go and we’re still breathing, and there’s this slowing down, which is amazing. And you also do this mini-meditation that you’ve told me that has helped some business friends of yours who were very stressful, and would you care to share that mini sort of guided way of starting the morning you do?
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah. I think you mean the contemplation.
Claudia A. Altucher: Yes, the contemplation.
Paul Dallaghan: It may have helped some businessmen, but I – but I mean, the feedback I get from different people is if you – and from myself, even, you know, you take on something sincerely, there’s a positive outcome, sort of speak. Well, you know, one should understand, when we speak of the field of meditation, it’s synonymous with the field of yoga, and me, even from an academic research point of view, I’m very deliberate that those are not separate lines, you know? How and what one does – you might wanna divide it up and say, “Well, this is this Buddhist meditation technique, and we’re gonna call that that name,” et cetera. But especially if one understands the field of yoga, it is a field; it is a whole method – methodology, procedures of the meditative process.
Claudia A. Altucher: Yes.
Paul Dallaghan: And asana practice is part of that process. It’s an establishing, grounding factor. The pranayama, from the yoga point of view, is considered kind of the key technique to shift one from the techniques, practices of meditation into the internal aspects of meditation, right? Hence, its respect and emphasis within the field. And of course, that doesn’t come ’cause you did it for three months; it’s a long – it’s this drawn out process, and there’s a number of – because we are individuals with quite individual lives, meaning a variety of different experiences at different times and how we grew up and everything, but the package – our little bag as such – is loaded with a variety of factors that are – so you could call them psychological manifest and physiological in nature, but they are based so much, as well, on human interactions.
And really, when it comes down to it, in terms of this meditative process, we’re coming up against these issues, blocks, challenges, and what had – something that – back in the, I suppose, the mid-’90s when I was starting to shift and things – it’s not because anybody told me at the time; it was just sort of – it hit me at a sense of – point of desperation. And even though you can read about it in books and other things, but this sense of what was real gratitude, and then a real sense of, “I need help; please help me,” and at a later point, looking a bit deeper in and understanding the kinda need for forgiveness, you know?
So the – and I still do this every morning, and it’s something I definitely share. So as a technique of meditation, it’s a form of contemplation. Other techniques of meditation are sitting to watch the breath and so on and so on. So this requires engagement mentally with the subject matter, you know? It’s not that you sit there and go, “Thanks,” and try to feel something.
Claudia A. Altucher: No, in fact, it’s very involved. I remember when you would say, “Okay, I forgive,” or, “Forgive me,” tears swelling up and a lot of feelings and release happening.
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah, but you have to go in and explore it, right? So that’s a – I mean, I’ll summarize it as, “Thanks, forgive, help,” but, thanks to get to the depth of it, to feel it is away from the word “thanks,” and it’s based more on do you actually feel appreciation; do you feel value, you know, the people in your life? And you might have to dig deep for weeks to go beyond the intellectual, “Yes, thank you,” to a – where it hits you.
And even more so with forgiveness, I mean, I found out, over a few years of working the forgiveness thing, the change in and around the heart. And again, it’s like – look, if I actually hurt people, it’s not something I probably want to think about or own up to, and then on a simple surface glance, it’s like, “Well, no, not really,” you know? And maybe they deserved it or –
Claudia A. Altucher: [Laughs]
Paul Dallaghan: But you tap into the quality of empathy, and if you can feel another person’s pain, that’s already a big start. And then, if you ask yourself, “Have I caused similar hurt and pain in someone else?” And maybe I can’t fully say, “Yes,” consciously, but chances are, there’s so much I don’t remember, and there’s so much I’ve been unaware of. And it’s highly possible, if not absolutely possible, that I have hurt others this way and caused pain, and if I was to extend it past even just this life, of course. So sort of acknowledging that and – to anyone and all that I’ve hurt or caused hurt to, I mean it: I’m sorry.
And they’re not even in my life now that they’re not around, or I don’t know how to reach them or whatever, but this is the language of the heart and transcending. And so we can say, “Oh, it helps them,” but ultimately, it’s doing some healing on my level, and if it has an impact on them, then that is wonderful, and that’s the right thing. But I can’t get off on, “I’m doing this ’cause it will help them,” you know, going back on a sort of an egotistical justification of it.
But on the other side is trying to forgive people – and that’s probably even harder – from it, ’cause of attachment and a lack of being able to penetrate beneath the surface of what we consider was the unjust, be it treatment or statement that was – and so it’s very helpful to step back and try to look at, “Well, who am I? Can I really, really be hurt?” That doesn’t mean that whatever that person did is okay. You know, on the contrary; they might be a scoundrel and their behavior is completely inappropriate, but I can dissect this or undo it, so to speak, and in so doing, when it’s bound together, it’s hard for me to let go, but when I see the pieces and I see who I – human behavior and their behavior and the nature of it, then a sort of unbinding or separation has come, and I don’t forget. I don’t not learn from it, but the – you know it’s had an effect when that memory comes open, it does not cause a similar same physiological reaction.
Claudia A. Altucher: That’s very interesting because in cases of – and I was just in another podcast talking about many women share the story of childhood abuse, and that’s a very hard one when it comes up, you know, “Can I forgive?” And so you’re saying the way you can tell it’s working is that when you remember that, you don’t necessarily go to the habitual, “Oh, I hate that,” or you get agitated, but you can sort of breathe through it and be more calm.
Paul Dallaghan: Well, one part might be that the same mental language and dialogue doesn’t come up in the same strength, but the other is – you see, let’s say somebody has abused me at some point, which happens to a lot of us, you know?
Claudia A. Altucher: Yeah, of course.
Paul Dallaghan: And when I think of that on a sheer, physiological level, the heart is beat, and you know, the cascade of activity chemically, you know, the nervous system and the body, and I experience an emotion that’s probably quite strong that comes with that, and it might manifest in tears or anger or a variety – a mixture of that. And it’s – the story plays over again. And it’s almost as sort of a repetitive posttraumatic event that doesn’t have the opportunity to be interrupted because I relive it, you know? And not out of choice, but sometimes, we get stuck in it and we feel, “They deserved that _____, and you see what this does to me?”
So part of it is almost having to remove our own story around it. And it does not – abuse is horrendous, and it doesn’t condone that, but it helps me, hopefully, see – get some space, understand, and if I – if it – it’s not that I’m willingly trying to bring that up, but if it comes up, the impact on even just my physiology – you know, I can almost see that, “Oh, I’ve made some space here,” you know? The mental part of me understands that their behavior – and maybe they were going through some crazy, weird time, but their behavior is deplorable or it’s inhuman or it’s just not kind or nice, depending on the situation, but the – for myself, there’s a level of space, growth through understanding, and that shift has occurred on a deeper level. And as a result, I’m not reliving the reaction again and again, you know? The physiological response doesn’t take me over again and again. And I think that’s tremendous for an individual that has suffered, and it shows that there are – is plasticity here. We can kind of shift and move and grow.
And to put that back in the bigger meditative picture, our psychology and emotional stuff and stuff that goes are on are the things that keep coming up and in the way, and just sitting and being with your breath or other things, or doing asana, or whatever it might be, you know, will not be enough. Talk to anybody who’s really gone through a path – I mean, even if you’ve talked to some Buddhist monks who are meditating, that isn’t all they do, and if it is all they do, then they haven’t really gone very far, and there’s a lot more to this picture. And modern psychology, I suppose, through different levels, has tried to tap in on some of this, but if we were to take a more holistic view, we’d have to include that element.
Claudia A. Altucher: Of course.
Paul Dallaghan: And that’s why – so if I’m approaching practice, it’s like, “Bring in the contemplation. Bring in the physiological practices. Bring in the physical practices. Bring in the silent space, mental aspect.” And it’s not like you get that in one week.
Claudia A. Altucher: No, no, of course not, yet.
Paul Dallaghan: It’s a growth; it’s a process; and ideally, if there’s some kinda guidance, teacher, understanding that can help with that, then that is good, you know? Maybe we need different support on some of those personal and psychological aspects. Maybe my own morning daily contemplation _____ _____. [Inaudible due to train in background] Was that a soundtrack? [Laughs]
Claudia A. Altucher: It’s a train. It’s a train, I’m sorry.
Paul Dallaghan: Oh, is it? Oh, okay. Are you – where are you? Are you in New York or something?
Claudia A. Altucher: Yeah, I’m in Cold Spring, and there’s a train that comes every so often and decides to blow the horn. Sorry about that.
Paul Dallaghan: That’s no problem. So anyway, the point being there that there’s sort of a diversity of elements that come together, and your question about the morning contemplation – for me, it’s a huge thing, and if any even people, I suppose, listening and – were to try to even take on something, just sitting for a couple of minutes each morning and to – you know, if you say, “Oh, I don’t have time,” well, you know, you’re in a taxi, you’re on the train, you’re making your way to work, whatever it is, it’s just a matter of how do you choose to direct or engage your own mental energy.
Claudia A. Altucher: Right.
Paul Dallaghan: And we all have time; it’s just, really, that choice where we choose to spend it.
Claudia A. Altucher: Yeah, and I would like to summarize it for anyone who’s listening, so – and I’m not gonna do it as perfect as Paul did, but it starts with not just saying, “Thank you,” but going deeper, and that may mean, “Wow, there is a floor on which I’m walking,” or, “There is – I have feet to walk,” or, “I have eyes to see,” or – I don’t know, it gets deeper and deeper, and then it moves into this – the gratitude moves into, “I’m sorry” is the next sort of front. And you sort of contemplate where you may have done wrong to someone else. You move, then, to forgiveness of anyone whom you perceive, and then you ask the question, “Can what I really am really be hurt?” And then, what I love about it is you end it with this sort of asking whatever the powers may be for help in guiding you throughout the day and in anything that may present itself.
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah, in a nutshell. Yeah, going from just feeling appreciation to feeling genuine, “I’m sorry,” and trying to understand forgiveness, to – I think the whole thing is – I mean, that’s been a huge – continues to be a huge aid or support, practice personally, and – [inaudible due to engine in background]
Claudia A. Altucher: Now I hear a car near you, I think.
Paul Dallaghan: I think it’s the gardener gardening.
Claudia A. Altucher: Oh. [Laughs]
Paul Dallaghan: But the – to be able to, I suppose, go back in a humble way and acknowledge that I need help, and actually, on a very practical, profound level, the inner path, regardless of having a teacher or not, is so subtle that to think that I don’t need help and couldn’t ask for it would be slightly delusional and almost – and I don’t mean purposely, but, you know, the arrogance –
Claudia A. Altucher: Coming from the ego, yeah.
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah, a sense of arrogance with it, and what’s required is this sense of, “I don’t really know anything and I need help here.” So that’s the sort of first impetus of help on the inner growth, inner path. And then there’s stuff that we gotta deal with. It’s like, I might be just tired with the way I always respond or behave in certain situations, you know? Just asking for help to work on what I would say clarity and inner strength, ’cause from those, actual things that are lauded much more in the press are almost outcomes of something like that, like kindness, being nice, compassion, et cetera, and you kind of grow from a base of clarity. And that’s the whole point of Gayatri mantra, to cultivate Gayatri – clarity – and the inner strength to, for want of a better term, maybe, to actually carry things through and –
Claudia A. Altucher: Yeah.
Paul Dallaghan: You know, what is compassion if it cannot see and understand somebody else’s situation and be able to help and do something about it, you know? And –
Claudia A. Altucher: Yeah. Now, you say that – clearly – and this is a practice I practice every day because I love it. It’s very helpful, and you say it’s not a matter of two, three days, where you see the results, but I do have to say, in all fairness, to the practice, when I did the teacher training in 2009, I did this practice with you every day for five weeks, and the moment I landed in New York City, I was immediately fired from my job, and I had debt, I had a car, I had a yoga membership, I had $30,000.00 in debt, I had a mortgage on a house, and I believe it was those 30 days of practicing this and being centered that allowed me the opportunity to be present with what was going on, which was pretty horrible. And I was even able to ask the human resources person, “How are you feeling, having to fire so many people?” Which, in retrospect, it seems strange, like, not the usual response. And I’m not saying – I’m not glorifying myself; I’m just saying it had a profound effect just in five weeks of doing it.
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah. See, I should be interviewing you.
Well, obviously, our time together in a very sort of focused, dedicated environment can help add to it, amplify, and it was continuous guidance on it, but ideal – my point is that even for me, 18 years later, it’s stuff I do every morning because every day goes on, and every day, it is still inner growth and introspection. But having said that, just like you’ve exclaimed and a couple others have to me along the way, that even within a couple of weeks – like, I was just speaking to a lady today here, and you know, very intelligent, strong academic person, et cetera, but just in two months from her getting absorbed into the yoga practice of the things we kinda do before training and then fully on, she said it totally cleared up where her mind is at, what she sees, and how she’s managing things. And she has a number of challenges – personal challenges that a lot of us, in life, of course, have to deal with, and in a sense, of course, if you – when we say, “Give yourself,” you’re kind of devoting certain mental energy to some of these things, there’s already an effect, even in a week or two. For it to become part of your inner makeup, obviously, it takes longer.
Claudia A. Altucher: Right. That’s true.
Paul Dallaghan: And five-week impact – for you, obviously, it had an impact, and stronger so than if you were there and it kind of hit you from out of the blue. But as I always like to say to people or students that come along, it’s like, “Well, I hope we can meet in 5, 10, 20 years on a reunion of all this and see who’s doing it, and hopefully, we’re all been able to keep this up,” you know?
Claudia A. Altucher: Yes, yes. Now, Paul, I’m conscious of the time and I know we’ve been going – I just have two last questions for you.
Paul Dallaghan: Okay, go ahead.
Claudia A. Altucher: One is you’ve mentioned as I heard you teaching, I think more than once, that as you go around the world and you have the opportunity to interact with many students, you notice that there is sort of – I’m gonna use the word “epidemic,” but in a broad sense, of a lot of tension in the upper part of the belly, so not so much in the lower part, but in the upper part of the belly. Do you think that’s tied to holding onto resentments and inner things, or what would you say?
Paul Dallaghan: Well, the research, hopefully, would identify what it might be tied to, but if I was to hypothesize at this stage – I mean, basically, wherever I’ve gone, be it north China or Europe or New York or wherever, I find similar patterns that manifests on sort of a physical level, and like you just said, it’s very common, the kind of tightness in the upper abdomen. And that, alone, was one of things to prompt me to get into this research side and academic stuff.
But if I’m to step back, I would say it’s – we are – human beings have a diverse number of traits to show a variety of behavioral aspects, and culturally, different compositions, but in base ways, we’re very close. We’re very similar as well, and if you look at it evolutionary, you can kind of chart that.
And whether I’m grown up in some tribe in New Guinea, or in a farm 200 years ago in England, or I’m in north China with my – under Mao regime in a farm there, or I’m growing up in the middle of New York City or something, or I was, say, in Ireland, you know, I’m still upset when my mother or father screamed at me when I’m 3 years old or 5 years old. I still hold my breath. I still – I’m seven years old now, and maybe my – one of my parents hit me, and I get all rigid and nervous, and I grip, and that involves also holding the breath.
Then I’m ten years old and one of my friends says something very mean to me and doesn’t wanna hang out anymore, and I get upset, and I’m crying, and there’s a rigidity that develops there too. Then I’m 13 – 14 years old, and I’m so nervous and excited about a new boyfriend/girlfriend, and then that doesn’t work out, and I’ve gone through this huge emotional cascade –
Claudia A. Altucher: Oh, yeah.
Paul Dallaghan: – while puberty’s gone on at the same time. And then I’m 17 – 18 and I’m a bit more – maybe a little more settled in it, but at the same time, I get hurt by somebody. And at 21, I get hurt by somebody, and so on.
And be it a family member or an emotional, intimate relationship counterpart – so the point is that we, as human beings, interact and relate with other human beings, and there’s the whole emotional content that goes on with that, and that – it’s typically unobserved, but it goes on or it’s reflected, you could say, in breath patterns and in how we grip and suppress and hold onto something. ‘Cause if we feel it deep inside and we try to manage it and stop it through sort of natural breath elements – and I’ve watched even my own kids at a very young age that they get upset and the whole abdomen tightens up, and you’re crying, and you know, I realize even then, watching, that this just – it just comes in. It’s part of human being.
But it doesn’t have to override us. If you don’t pay attention, it’s something that – if you ask me, it limits the extent and nature of the exhale, and that has its own – several challenging aspects to health and so on, so this can kick in on a variety of levels. So for me, a big part is undoing that cycle, and not in some grand, psychological exposé, but just through becoming aware of that and being able to at least use the breath to help undo and manage.
Claudia A. Altucher: Right. So whenever one of these – say your boss calls you in and he’s upset, like, you would demonstrate you can somewhat massage your upper belly as you’re taking in what the boss is saying. I thought that was a very good illustration that you did when you were teaching us.
Paul Dallaghan: Well, yeah. I mean, be careful. That can get kinda gimmicky and it could – just like you – at the beginning, you talked about the jetlag thing, it could be almost ineffective as well. It’s more that – okay, well, you know, it’s more that I sit and I work with the breath, and begin – in that setting, the pattern starts to shift. Now, whether you’re – you’ve been doing that for 20 years and you have it well mastered or you’re new to it, you and your boss, whoever that is, calls you in and might be upset about something, you’re still gonna feel on the spot, nervous, and there’s gonna be a natural response. The question is, is that response just building on continuous responses like that time and time again, or is it – like, even if you put me in that situation, I’ve had that natural response, but after it, can I release it and not be still caught with that upset setting or – you know, often, there’s a fear thing that comes up if your boss is yelling at you, et cetera – as opposed to being blasé and, “Well, screw that anyway,” and, “Who cares,” you know, it’s more, “Well, okay, he’s either justified or he’s overreacting or it’s too much. Let me manage my own physiology and take care of myself.” And yeah, if, in the situation, it helps to have a hand on your upper abdomen – in a situation like that, I wouldn’t fully state it, but you might be sitting, listening to some presentation or standing in the elevator, the lift, and you could just check in on how your breathing is, you know?
So I’d say it’s more the times where you can become aware of your breath and can work with it, either through a daily morning routine and/or these other moments, and then when these more highly-charged and emotional situations come up, that you’ll still get hit – triggered, but the ability to kind of manage it, I’d say, is way stronger and smoother, you know?
Claudia A. Altucher: That’s very – that’s helpful. So the last question I have is an ongoing question I have, which comes from my own curiosity, and it is a little deep, so I’m gonna go deep on you. And you’ve been practicing for many years. Clearly, you’ve been through many experiences, including family, divorce, children – everything. And throughout all of this, what would you say is one thing that has taken you a long time to understand?
Paul Dallaghan: I don’t know if I have a very specific answer for you, and I want to avoid clichés. I’m –
Claudia A. Altucher: It’s a deep question. Yeah, no, I know. [Laughs]
Paul Dallaghan: But also, I don’t know if I would put it in those terms.
Claudia A. Altucher: Ah, I see.
Paul Dallaghan: You know, life has gone on, there’s one thing that’s taken me a long time to understand – I don’t know if I can actually qualify it like that, but what I do continue to see is that – and these are kinda little phrases I like to use – is life is tricky. It can be beautiful and enjoyable, but ultimately, it’s tricky; there’s a lot of stuff to deal with, and it’s easy to forget to practice. It’s easy to forget that I did something. It’s easy to forget what I should do, you know what I mean, like things I’ve even learned, you see?
So the things we get into can easily slip away as well, and so if anything, okay, if I’m 20 years at this, it still is a growing, involved process, and avoiding the cliché of, “That’s me understanding myself,” et cetera, but it’s something that isn’t like, “Ah, there it is. It’s solved ’cause I’ve done 25 years or 30 years,” you know? It’s a process that continues to go on, and one works with oneself, and really, is it something you’re willing to stay in and keep at or not? And I think with years and maturing and that, you realize that it’s not about, oh, you practice and you do all this; the key is actually balance and finding balance and almost knowing what that balance is on sort of an internal level, and that, you can see – it can even sort of reveal what is the degree of practice needed and so on. And balance might also be something that covers many years, so you might have years of what we might call kind of a more dedicated or deeper, involved level of austerity or practice, and then that passes.
I mean, I know for me, there was 11 years, very kind of lean and austere, and it, in some way, accomplished some things and can pass; and then I’m definitely more involved in the world and with people, especially this stage, and it’s like – it’s not to shun or negate aspects of the world, then, either, you know? I mean, balance comes back in so you don’t get overly attached or addicted to something, but you don’t judge, negate, cross off the list either. A lot of that is the kind of cultural interactions, so food, what we drink, how we interact – these are things to be open, tolerant with, and then be very specific and detailed with one in a kind of a internal, private space and practice space, you see, which isn’t for public show or public blogging, exclamation, et cetera. It’s like you doing your thing, but also, interacting healthily out there. And so that balance is what will always be, I suppose, challenged on because life is tricky, and it’s easy to forget, and we kinda flip this way, flip that way, flip this way, flip that way.
So working on that, and that – not that that’s just one thing, but that is something that I’ve seen develop and even harmonize, and within the have family, kids, and don’t have family, and work, and all of this, you know? And I think it’s really important in practice because people miss that point, you know? Especially in asana practice and especially in a system that’s, you know, you’re doing another pose, another pose, another pose, it’s –
Claudia A. Altucher: To get caught.
Paul Dallaghan: Get away from it all, and it’s really about the right amount to do in this amount of time, in this day. And if you understand that – and it takes a while, admittedly, to understand that – and work with it, the effect manifests over years anyway.
So I come back to balance. And that balance can be – you know, I mean, what is inner peace? Stuff is gonna happen. How stable and balanced are you within that? And the word for me – kinda the word that came up back in the early days of teaching is “centered.” So it’s not – I think mindful isn’t enough; mindful is just an aspect of approach to this. To be centered is to work within that balance zone and kind of feel your – you might feel moments of harmony. You can deal with the stuff that life keeps throwing at you, and part of that approach is what you’ve learned and been taught and can work with and go deeper with it from a practice point of view.
Claudia A. Altucher: Yes. I love that. That’s very interesting, and it’s interesting, too, you called it Centered Yoga, and this is where people can find you, right? http://www.centeredyoga.com? Is that still the website?
Paul Dallaghan: [Laughs] For the commercial portion of this _____, yes. [Inaudible due to crosstalk]
Claudia A. Altucher: Yeah. [Laughs] Where can people find you?
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah, well, both – so the American way – http://www.centeredyoga.com and the Samahit – not Yoga Thailand, but Samahita – http://www.samahitaretreat.com.
Claudia A. Altucher: And that is S-A-M-A –
Paul Dallaghan: H-I-T-A.
Claudia A. Altucher: – retreat.com. Yeah, and this is the commercial part, but it’s commercial for a reason. I don’t do commercial just lightly; this is a place to go for real, for the real thing. I really enjoy having you over, Paul. Thank you so much for taking the time, and I wish you good luck with family and Ph.D. and everything.
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah, thanks, Claudia. I enjoyed the discussion and the questions, so…
Claudia A. Altucher: Om shanti.
Paul Dallaghan: Yeah.